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Post by tynged on Dec 3, 2010 9:03:42 GMT -6
I thought I'd try to carry this topic over from the Vent about anything thread, because I think it's worth having a topic all its own (the subject having run a tangent through at least one other thread that I've seen, and it earns quite a bit of chatbox activity) and not necessarily in a vent-y way (but that's perfectly fine, too! Other people can be appallingly carelessly cruel about this, after all.) So, about the painter William Adolphe Bouguereau's breathtakingly beautiful nudes, particularly his Birth of Venus. Those who literally saw themselves in the subject, well, I knew this was a forum full of goddesses What's so sad is that that's considered fat nowadays...orz For health's sake I'd like to drop a few pounds, but it's hard to do that when you're happy with how you are. Yarz. You know that chart with height-weight axises, and the rainbow zones labeled "underweight" "healthy weight" "overweight" "obese"? I read this article that says people who fit into the overweight zone recover the fastest from injuries, have a greater immunity to infections, generally live longer and are a full 40% less likely than people of "healthy weight" to die of something like emphysema or pneumonia. That sounds suspiciously like health to me. ;D Not so sure about this next thing, but I been told happiness and a loving relationship are majorly awesome things too. Anyway, I know that science is a self-corrective system, the facts will keep changing with new research and findings, but I hate how this implies that the people in charge of setting down the initial facts, are still so greatly influenced themselves by the -- really arbitrary -- media standards of what's healthy, normal, beautiful. That's not part of the scientific process anymore, that's downright corruption! Researchers at the University of Oxford even found a genetic source of obesity, obesity, that can still (at least in their rats) correlate with perfectly fine health... but they're using that research to find a way to deactivate that gene. As in, instead of accepting that there's any natural variation among living things, or informing people about reasons other than greed or lack of discipline that make people big, instead of any effort to lessen knee-jerk presumptions and bullying directed at others for how they look, they would rather... mangle people's basic wiring so that more people can look more the same as everyone else. Whaaat.
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Post by dyzzispell on Dec 3, 2010 10:05:16 GMT -6
Wow, you've made some great points, Tynged. Seriously, so they can look like everyone else? But if they really are healthy... My brother is kind of heavy too, and his doctor keeps telling him that he's healthy too. And if I remember right, he's not the only one I've heard that from. Where did the stick figure idea start, anyway? I thought it was with the model "Twiggy", but I could be wrong. I mean, even women 50 years ago were curvier and expected to be so. I'll be honest, I know I've had prejudicial tendencies in the past, but in recent years I've begun to realize how wrong I was, and I've worked hard to change that. But then, I had prejudices on a lot of other things, too, and I've really been going through sort of a "cleaning-out" to try to fix them. (Trust me, you guys would NOT have liked me as a teenager...)
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Post by Kyashi on Dec 3, 2010 19:49:27 GMT -6
Great topic, tynged! This really is fun to be able to discuss this solely in a thread all it's own. I think being curvy is very beautiful, and, yes, dyzz, you're right that women were allowed to be curvier about 50-60 years ago. Like, Marilyn Monroe, who was Venus-incarnate for her generation. She was not a tiny little girl, by no stretch of the imagination. Personally, I'm very bothered by fashion models, and the stupid men who claim to be straight and actually feel sexually attracted to them. How can you say you're straight when fashion models look EXACTLY like gay men? They are tall, too tall, have NO boobs, no butt, no fat anywhere on their bodies. They are built exactly like gay men, and that industry is run by gay men, so that makes sense that they'd want to make their models look like what they are attracted to, lol. But, why do straight men find them attractive? Real women are shorter, have bigger boobs, curves all over their rears, hips and thighs, etc. and actually look like women. No offense to any women who happens looks like a super model. And, sure, some men will find women built like this attractive, since men can find just about any type of woman attractive. But, why do they get to be the standard? They are just tall gay men! They don't even look like women at all!
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Post by Unger69 on Dec 3, 2010 20:27:22 GMT -6
I might as well add my thoughts to this thread.
In case no one has ever noticed, I'm a around the average weight for my size. I've been striving to gain weight but due to health issues and the excercise I get in a day, I can barely gain anything.
However, I have boobs, thighs and some fat on my stomach. And from what I see everyday, people my size and smaller have it too.
I had eating issues when I was younger. Society wants people to be super, small. And being easily swayed I gave in. It lasted for a few years, but I never lost weight or gained any. I was still stuck at my size. It frustrated me to no end, but if anything I realized that society is dumb and I want to stay warm in the winter.
But if there is one thing that really bugs me to no end, it's saying that men prefer small girls. I HATE hearing that, and as far as I know, it's quite far from the truth. Sure, there are the few who like their girls super skinny but a lot of them are NATURALLY that skinny. The guys around here at least, prefer girls with meat on their bones. They want a girl who isn't afraid to eat.
These are my experiences and while society may claim something else, if you look hard enough there are people who find you beautiful no matter your size.
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Post by AllyKatt on Dec 3, 2010 22:14:03 GMT -6
These are my experiences and while society may claim something else, if you look hard enough there are people who find you beautiful no matter your size. SO true! when i was in college, i had put on a little weight, and was working on losing it - very slowly, via diet and exercise changes. i had a guy named justin with a HUGE crush on me at that time, but he was *NOT* happy with my losing weight - even though i was doing it in very healthy ways. he preferred me heavier. a few years later, when i lost all the weight {and then some...} and was modeling - justin couldn't stand the way i looked. it was interesting to me that i was being paid to look that way, but knew that there were people who truly preferred me the other way. justin would like me a lot better again now that i'm heavier.
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Post by Kyashi on Dec 4, 2010 0:04:12 GMT -6
Well, in my experience, men do actually prefer thinner women. It was simply obvious back when I was rail-thin that I could not go anywhere in public alone without wearing a phony engagement ring on my finger, just to get the guys to not hit on me, or follow me around everywhere I went. But, as soon as I became even a normal/average size, they all disappeared, lol. But, YES, there were those very few who actually liked me being average sized, if not a bit bigger. But, there were only about TWO that I can be sure of, and that's out of dozens and dozens that preferred me nearly rail thin. Ironically, at that time of being super skinny, I liked one guy in particular very, very much (although, I was seriously wasting my time), and he didn't like me because I was too skinny for him. Another guy liked me, but I didn't like him, before I became really skinny. I think he kinda gave up on me when I became skinny. And, both these guys were very, very attractive guys with lots of girls interested in them. But, these really were the only ones that thought this way. They liked their women curvy, but they were the exception to the rule. And, those guys always exist, but they are the exception, not the rule itself. Although, keep in mind, I've always lived in Southern California. There is a chance that this is the way men around here think about women, in general. Different parts of the country are likely to yield very differing opinions, tastes, likes, dislikes, etc. People around here can be a bit superficial, not gonna lie. But, I'm not saying that everyone's like that here. I'm not like that. People care more about money, what kind of car they drive, and how big their house is over what they look like, as if that is so much better....
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Post by Plumeriasmoon on Dec 4, 2010 1:16:16 GMT -6
Guys,I'm not curvy,I'm FAT and all the ugly things that go along with it (varicose veins in my legs,cellulite,stretch marks on 90% of my body,etc.).The only time men ever took an interest in me was when they were taking part in a cruel joke or they felt that they could treat me any way they wanted and I should be glad to put up with it to show appreciation for the fact that they lowered their standards for me and be grateful they paid any attention to me at all (a guy actually told me that once after telling me the only romance I'll ever have is with the refrigerator).
Even my father thought of me as disgusting.I made the mistake of asking him to take me to a doctor's appointment while I was undergoing cancer treatment.I was so sick and in so much pain it was a tremendous effort to walk without crying.Well,he said he wanted to show me something after the appointment and I said okay.We drove past this orange twisted metal sculpture and I had commented that it was one of the ugliest things I had ever seen.My father turned to me and said "Really Brandi? Because of all my children I think you're the ugliest." And no,he wasn't joking and said so.
Let's be honest,what kind of insult can I come up with to hurt a smaller person? Skinny bitch? Twig? Stick? Anything I could come up with pales in comparison to the viciousness that they come up with. And believe me when I say they are very creative with their cruelty.Let me give you a sample.....fat bitch,fat pig,disgusting pig,fat whore,fat ass,fat ugly slob,can't you stop eating you fat fuck?.....and the list goes on.And I can't always come up with a snappy come back when I know nothing I say will even filter through.
I was horribly bullied both inside and outside of home about my weight.Only two of my sisters and my mother never made my weight an issue.In school,it was so bad words can't describe it.It all culminated with me being beaten so serverely I had to stay out of school for a month.I was only 9 years old.I still have scars in my head and on my face from that beating.
And before anyone says anything,yes I have tried to lose weight.I'm diabetic and have high blood pressure.My weight isn't the cause of these health issues,but I know it doesn't help.I eat a lot healthier than people think I do and I don't just sit on my ass either.Also,when they rip out your thyroid and bounce you all over the place with hormone replacement therapy,weight loss becomes about 150 times more difficult.
Whenever someone says they like a big girl they mean big breats,full hips and thighs,full bottom,but with a small waist and flat stomach.They don't mean me or anyone like me.
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Post by Kyashi on Dec 4, 2010 3:05:12 GMT -6
A beating when you were 9-years-old?!? Or, rather, you've been beaten for this at all?? Lord in Heaven, what on Earth is the matter with people?!?! That truly is terrible, plumey, and something that must be hard to admit to people. So, just know I think you're very brave for revealing that. You must wish scientists would just invent that memory-wiping gizmo from Men In Black, already!
I feel for ya, hun.... Hugs, not fists, from me, sweetie... *hugs* ;D
Anyway, as for the discussion, men usually are, like you said, talking about women with their fat in all the right places, and not just fat all over. You're right about that. But, honestly, there are a few deviants out there that do like truly, genuinely fat women. Fat-all-over ladies. For real. I don't know if these guys are alright, in that they aren't totally weird perverts, or what. Maybe they could be good people? If there are men who want to sleep with young boys, then why not some men who want obese women? At least it's not a crime to love a large woman.
And, I'm not saying men who like big ladies are perverted like pedophiles. It's probably seen that way because they prefer something sexually that is so deviant from the norm. But, who are they harming? Nobody, so it shouldn't be considered a true deviation.
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Post by tynged on Dec 4, 2010 5:47:26 GMT -6
I think I'll take a break from the links and statistics and just go personal, too. People tell me that they wish they were skinny like I am, and if I'm feeling masochistic that day I answer "No you don't, because I'm recovering from an eating disorder." Something in their expression, if not what they say next, tells me how they've decided I have a history of being vain and gullible, when a moment before they were complimenting me on what could have been the result of that. It's too easy to jump on board with the idea that heavy people don't take care of themselves, but I was not taking care of myself in just the worst way and... nobody notices. My mother had so many rules around mealtimes. She really wanted them all to be perfect every time, and her punishments for breaking them could be, erm, out of proportion sometimes. For example, once I accidentally dropped a crumb from a fruit pie crust between the serving dish and my plate, and before I could notice or apologize she just yanked my hair down and slammed my head against the table. Which is perfectly good manners if the fellow diner is weaker and younger and impressionable and your own daughter < /sarcasm>. At the best of times I could just never do anything right, and because of that I got to thinking that I just didn't deserve to eat. If I'm eating with friends who can let me forget that time, or if it's something I cooked from scratch so I feel like I've earned it, it's easier. Most of the time, though, just the thought of taking the next bite of food is like a round of arm wrestling between my hunger (which I eventually taught myself not to feel) and shame (which is much more difficult.) Throw in the feeling that I'm about to be attacked at any time for eating, and shame usually wins. Unless I "ask for" it, though, (admitting my problem to acquaintances, dressing in the wrong way,) I haven't experienced much direct negativity for how I look. But my mother had an image to keep up, and ultimately my body suffered for it. So when people's very sense of well-being (or more than that) comes under attack for the sake of image or pretense, I just get so sad and furious at the world. Worst of all, I still catch myself on the offending side sometimes. These tiny prejudices get everywhere, outside and inside and part of my history and among my best friends. I only catch it when someone's gotten hurt, and by then I've forgotten how to apologize in a way that they might actually believe me.
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Post by dyzzispell on Dec 4, 2010 12:16:09 GMT -6
Wow. I am so so sorry for all that you guys have had to go through, Tynged and Plume. People really can be rotten. I never had to struggle with my weight until I turned 30 and became a housewife. (And I have a slightly underactive thyroid.) Now I really do have to watch what I eat, and for me, gaining too much weight would be a health issue. If I gain too much, it really hurts my knees (old injuries) so that's another reason to try to stay on the smaller side if I can. And that's one thing I will have a LOT of difficulty with if I ever DO get pregnant. All that extra weight on my stupid knees is going to make it very difficult to walk... I need to be watching what I eat, anyway, because I have a bit of a sugar intolerance that could lead to type 2 diabetes. I'm a bit of a sugar junkie, so that's a hard one to work on for me. I go through phases where I do great and others - like now with Christmas treats and all - where I don't try very hard to hold back on the sugar cravings. I did have a phase I went through, when I was about 19-20 where I lost a lot of weight and even began to wonder if I was anorexic and didn't realize it. I had just broken up with an abusive boyfriend, but I was really depressed because somehow I thought he was the one for me and now I had nothing left. I knew a few months in that the relationship would be a bad idea, but I stayed with the guy for 3 years because I got this idea in my head that I was supposed to, like it was God's will for me or something. Turns out I dated the guy during a time when you're supposed to really try to figure out who you are, and so all that I was, was wrapped up in him. I didn't know anything else and I was just too scared to leave. Anyway, after I broke up with him, I lost interest in food. I didn't eat much at all, and yes, I learned how to ignore my hunger, too. People at my job were telling me to eat as if my life depended on it. But that was just it - I didn't care about my life, so what difference did it make? I got down to 89 pounds (and I'm 5'2"). At that point I really did start to wonder if I had an eating disorder and starting looking into them. But my fight wasn't so much about thinking the food would make me fat. It was more a rebellion against what everyone else was telling me I had to do - EAT! I don't remember how I got out of that mentality - or when - but eventually I did. The thing I hate is that people assume that because you're skinny, then that automatically means you can eat whatever you want and you never have to fight with your weight. It's kind of similar to the way people look at someone who's overweight and simply assume they have no self-control (although I'm sure that's much more hurtful than the skinny remarks). But Tynged has a good point too - you never know what someone has gone through to get where they are. As many times as I've looked at someone and said "Man I wish I had your metabolism", I never even considered that they might be dealing with or recovering from an eating disorder. And Plume - I know that losing your thyroid and having hormone replacement therapy can totally throw everything off-balance. Actually, I've known many who have had surgeries or gone through menopause and done the HRT - and it seems like that alone is quite a factor in weight gain. So I definitely understand that it is something you can't do anything about. And I am so, so sorry that our culture considers those like you an outcast. It's completely wrong and unfair. Which brings me to another thought - so how many of you are liking this new trend in the government to "fight obesity"? Telling people what they can and cannot eat, and deciding that food is the only reason that people are obese. The government has no place telling me what I can or cannot put on my dinner table. It makes me furious. Not only that, but it's helping to further mold everyone's opinion that fat people are only fat because they eat too much. Where's this so-called "tolerance"? Or does that only apply with stuff like sexual preference and race? It's insane. Anyway, sorry for the book that I just wrote. Had a lot to say this time.
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Post by Plumeriasmoon on Dec 4, 2010 14:39:55 GMT -6
Phenomenal Woman by Maya Angelou
Pretty women wonder where my secret lies I'm not cute or built to suit to a fashion model's size But when I start to tell them They think I'm telling lies
I say,
It's in the reach of my arms The span of my hips The stride of my step The curl of my lips
I'm a woman Phenomenally Phenomenal woman That,s me
Men themselves have wondered What they see in me They try so much But they can't touch My inner mystery When I try to show them They say they say they still can't see
It's in the arch of my back The sun of my smile The ride of my breasts The grace of my style
I'm a woman Phenomenally Phenomenal woman That's me
Now you understand Just why my head's not bowed I don't shout or jump about Or have to talk real loud When you see me passing It ought to make you proud
I say,
It's in the clickof my heels The bend of my hair The palm of my hand The need of my care
Because I'm a woman Phenomenally Phenomenal woman That's me.
Take that self hate,self doubt,self loathing and self recrimination.
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Post by Plumeriasmoon on Dec 4, 2010 14:57:03 GMT -6
Kyashi......You truly are lovely.Thank you so much for your kind words.You always manage to find a way to make me smile. @dyzzi.......You are very sweet and it doesn't matter to me what you were like as a teenager.You were doing what we all were..finding your way and growing.And what a wonderful lady you turned out to be. tynged.......Sweetheart,I am truly sorry your mother felt that she had the right to force her obsessive and damaged ideals on you.All humans are fallible,We all make mistakes because that is how we learn.And the one thing I understood about the girls who were so cruel to me is that they most likely were in pain themselves.Although it gave them no right to hurt me,I thought that maybe they had pain that they were dealing with and hurting me was a way for them to feel better.But know this,I bet you are a pretty girl because you are just that....you.
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Post by Plumeriasmoon on Dec 4, 2010 15:12:44 GMT -6
I agree about the government.There are so many other facets to obesity or any eating disorder for that matter.A lot of people use food to deal with emotional or mental issues.And some as a way to punish themselves.It's incredibly narrow minded and shows just how out of touch the government is with its people.
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Post by Kyashi on Dec 4, 2010 20:14:36 GMT -6
@plumey: Thank you for that wonderful poem, by the great Maya Angelou at that! You remember to read that often, 'kay? tynged: You really know the most likely origin of your eating disorder. Good for you! Abuse, I'm sure, can cause people to do many things that somehow continue the abuse they suffered at the hands of another, long after that abuse ends. And, it often transforms into self-inflicted abuse. It pains me to hear how your mother treated you as a child, but it's your past. It's what happened to you, and you're so brave for sharing it! *hug* @dyzz: All this talk about what you were like as a youngster really proves just how much you've grown in all this time, 'cause you really are nothing like that now! You have self-esteem now because you learned how to accept yourself for who you are, which is something I've been getting better at over the years, too. You are an inspiration to all of us, especially to the younger girls here! I think I was pretty different back in the day, too, and of course, had much worse self-esteem. I was too skinny about 10 years ago, partly due to having trouble with my digestive system, and I needed to radically change my diet. I was treated differently for being skinny, and hated that people made such a big deal about it. I wasn't treated poorly, but I hated being singled-out for something so superficial. I hated that I had been fat before, and was mostly invisible to men, and everyone else. I was the fat girl in a skinny woman's body, thinking how unjust this world is to those who have a little too much fat on their bodies. I agree about the government.There are so many other facets to obesity or any eating disorder for that matter.A lot of people use food to deal with emotional or mental issues.And some as a way to punish themselves.It's incredibly narrow minded and shows just how out of touch the government is with its people. And, I agree with you and dyzzi about this. If people really are eating too much, and that's only part of the problem, then there's a real reason for it. It's not enough to force people to stop doing it. They do it because they are emotionally and spiritually starved, and filling that void is NOT the government's job. We need our friends, families, communities, churches, neighbors...We need to love and accept each other for who we are, and then this weight crisis will finally melt away.... Easier said than done, but we don't need a fail government that can't take care of itself to act like our savior. The government was never meant to be a savior of any kind.
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Post by Plumeriasmoon on Dec 5, 2010 0:06:25 GMT -6
Very well said,my dear Kyashi.
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